1
00:00:01,140 --> 00:00:04,140
congratulations

2
00:00:34,219 --> 00:00:39,020
welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world

3
00:00:36,899 --> 00:00:41,760
with me George Galloway

4
00:00:39,020 --> 00:00:44,219
the outbreak of the deadly Ebola

5
00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:46,379
epidemic has cut a sway through West

6
00:00:44,219 --> 00:00:48,719
Africa but now that it's reached West

7
00:00:46,379 --> 00:00:51,420
Texas it's really made the power sit up

8
00:00:48,719 --> 00:00:52,980
and take notice with a big conference in

9
00:00:51,420 --> 00:00:55,260
London this week

10
00:00:52,980 --> 00:00:57,539
it's no great Mischief if they fall in

11
00:00:55,260 --> 00:00:59,699
Sierra Leone or Liberia at least not

12
00:00:57,539 --> 00:01:01,920
unless there's a prophet in it the U.S

13
00:00:59,699 --> 00:01:04,619
first responds to the epidemic in Africa

14
00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:07,680
was their default position sending the

15
00:01:04,619 --> 00:01:10,320
Army by contrast Cuba's response was

16
00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:12,840
their default position send in the

17
00:01:10,320 --> 00:01:15,720
doctors joining us now to discuss the

18
00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:18,420
phenomena of Cuban medical diplomacy

19
00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:20,520
which has restored Sight and Sound to

20
00:01:18,420 --> 00:01:23,400
those without it all over the world and

21
00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:26,220
is now waiting fearlessly into the Ebola

22
00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:28,979
pandemic is Bernard Regan of Britain's

23
00:01:26,220 --> 00:01:33,060
Finest solidarity campaign the campaign

24
00:01:28,979 --> 00:01:33,979
for Cuba Bernard it is a phenomenal

25
00:01:33,060 --> 00:01:37,740
thing

26
00:01:33,979 --> 00:01:40,280
the Cuba in many respects a poor country

27
00:01:37,740 --> 00:01:44,460
a third world country

28
00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:47,100
is actually responsible for medical

29
00:01:44,460 --> 00:01:49,680
diplomacy that has cured hundreds of

30
00:01:47,100 --> 00:01:51,479
thousands of people around the world of

31
00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:52,740
blindness deafness

32
00:01:51,479 --> 00:01:55,320
it's

33
00:01:52,740 --> 00:01:57,299
an internationalist weapon that Cuba is

34
00:01:55,320 --> 00:02:00,060
deploying here it's it's absolutely

35
00:01:57,299 --> 00:02:02,820
amazing George in fact if you look back

36
00:02:00,060 --> 00:02:04,560
over the 55 years since the Cuban

37
00:02:02,820 --> 00:02:07,619
Revolution happened and overthrew the

38
00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:10,259
dictator fulgencio Batista they have

39
00:02:07,619 --> 00:02:13,920
treated an estimated 85 million people

40
00:02:10,259 --> 00:02:16,680
across the globe and currently this year

41
00:02:13,920 --> 00:02:19,200
there was me underestimating it's

42
00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:21,780
phenomenal and this year alone they have

43
00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:24,780
something like 50 000 medics in the

44
00:02:21,780 --> 00:02:26,220
field in 155 countries so there are very

45
00:02:24,780 --> 00:02:28,920
few countries in the world that haven't

46
00:02:26,220 --> 00:02:30,660
sometimes benefited from Cuba's medical

47
00:02:28,920 --> 00:02:31,860
action and as you said in the

48
00:02:30,660 --> 00:02:34,200
introduction

49
00:02:31,860 --> 00:02:36,720
um they are now responding to the crisis

50
00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:39,420
in West Africa so they make that makes

51
00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:41,340
them more having more doctors in the

52
00:02:39,420 --> 00:02:44,099
world than the World Health Organization

53
00:02:41,340 --> 00:02:46,920
that's true the the number of doctors as

54
00:02:44,099 --> 00:02:50,700
I've said for example going to Sierra

55
00:02:46,920 --> 00:02:52,680
Leone is 165 in the first instance but

56
00:02:50,700 --> 00:02:54,660
the plan is to send an additional 300

57
00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:56,640
and as you alluded to in the

58
00:02:54,660 --> 00:02:59,220
introduction to the program uh the

59
00:02:56,640 --> 00:03:02,400
United States response was to send 3 000

60
00:02:59,220 --> 00:03:06,120
soldiers and 62 clinicians quite

61
00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:09,780
different this must represent a huge

62
00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:12,360
investment uh by Cuba 50 000 doctors

63
00:03:09,780 --> 00:03:15,659
despair whilst here in our own country

64
00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:17,879
were short of doctors yes I mean this is

65
00:03:15,659 --> 00:03:20,760
an important point because

66
00:03:17,879 --> 00:03:24,659
um Cuba in the country itself has a

67
00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:27,180
ratio of one doctor per 210 people

68
00:03:24,659 --> 00:03:28,739
and we in Britain have a ratio of 1 to

69
00:03:27,180 --> 00:03:30,720
370.

70
00:03:28,739 --> 00:03:33,000
and notwithstanding that they're still

71
00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:34,560
able to provide the medical support and

72
00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:36,300
this isn't a one-off

73
00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:37,500
um they responded to a number of crises

74
00:03:36,300 --> 00:03:40,260
that have happened over the years

75
00:03:37,500 --> 00:03:42,540
earthquake in uh in Kashmir and Pakistan

76
00:03:40,260 --> 00:03:44,519
absolutely they've been uh yeah

77
00:03:42,540 --> 00:03:47,159
everywhere since

78
00:03:44,519 --> 00:03:49,260
um they've established uh Henry Brigade

79
00:03:47,159 --> 00:03:51,299
which is a Detachment of medical

80
00:03:49,260 --> 00:03:53,640
Detachment particularly established to

81
00:03:51,299 --> 00:03:56,040
respond to crisis situations so they

82
00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:57,840
were in fact prepared to go to the

83
00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:00,720
United States of America when Hurricane

84
00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:03,540
Katrina hit New Orleans but the Americas

85
00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:04,739
never replied to their offer which is

86
00:04:03,540 --> 00:04:07,319
interesting because I think the

87
00:04:04,739 --> 00:04:09,540
important thing about Cuba is that it is

88
00:04:07,319 --> 00:04:12,120
prepared to offer help unconditionally

89
00:04:09,540 --> 00:04:14,519
it doesn't say who are you do you like

90
00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:17,100
us do you support us it says this is a

91
00:04:14,519 --> 00:04:19,079
human catastrophe it needs an actual

92
00:04:17,100 --> 00:04:21,359
practical response and they go and do it

93
00:04:19,079 --> 00:04:22,979
the example you cited Kashmir in fact

94
00:04:21,359 --> 00:04:24,840
when the Cubans went they had no

95
00:04:22,979 --> 00:04:27,600
political or diplomatic relations with

96
00:04:24,840 --> 00:04:30,360
Pakistan but they made that absolutely

97
00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:32,340
secondary they say said our job is to go

98
00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:34,320
and to help people and they sent two and

99
00:04:32,340 --> 00:04:36,360
a half thousand Medics who went into

100
00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:38,040
areas of the country that even the

101
00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:41,759
government found difficulty in reaching

102
00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:43,500
treating something like 70 percent of

103
00:04:41,759 --> 00:04:45,479
the victims of the earthquake more than

104
00:04:43,500 --> 00:04:47,160
a million people were were killed or

105
00:04:45,479 --> 00:04:49,259
injured during that and they treated

106
00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,759
seventy percent of them and they left

107
00:04:49,259 --> 00:04:52,199
behind and this is an important thing

108
00:04:50,759 --> 00:04:54,720
it's not just the response to the

109
00:04:52,199 --> 00:04:57,240
immediate crisis but the Legacy a very

110
00:04:54,720 --> 00:05:00,000
practical Legacy not just the emblematic

111
00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:01,979
that they actually left behind 32 field

112
00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:04,380
hospitals that people could continue to

113
00:05:01,979 --> 00:05:06,900
use and also they established relations

114
00:05:04,380 --> 00:05:09,360
with Pakistan so that young people from

115
00:05:06,900 --> 00:05:11,220
Pakistan went to Cuba to train as

116
00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:14,220
doctors as part of an ongoing program

117
00:05:11,220 --> 00:05:17,040
and that's been the case in Africa and

118
00:05:14,220 --> 00:05:19,020
in Latin America and even for some poor

119
00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,759
students from the United States who

120
00:05:19,020 --> 00:05:23,280
couldn't afford to go to medical schools

121
00:05:20,759 --> 00:05:25,919
in the U.S have been offered places to

122
00:05:23,280 --> 00:05:28,080
train us doctors in Cuba and then to

123
00:05:25,919 --> 00:05:31,199
return well that's a very interesting I

124
00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:34,020
didn't know that uh but uh I did watch

125
00:05:31,199 --> 00:05:37,020
uh uh Michael Moore's film sickle about

126
00:05:34,020 --> 00:05:39,560
the different medical systems that they

127
00:05:37,020 --> 00:05:42,419
have in the world and uh he took people

128
00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:46,259
who were firefighters who had been

129
00:05:42,419 --> 00:05:47,880
damaged in 9 11 rescuing people who

130
00:05:46,259 --> 00:05:50,460
couldn't get medical treatment because

131
00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:52,860
they didn't have insurance in the United

132
00:05:50,460 --> 00:05:54,660
States or not enough insurance he took

133
00:05:52,860 --> 00:05:57,600
them to Cuba where they were treated

134
00:05:54,660 --> 00:05:59,699
entirely for free and I never forgot the

135
00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,680
picture of bewilderment on the face of

136
00:05:59,699 --> 00:06:03,360
the American patients when they were

137
00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:05,400
looking around for someone to pay and

138
00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:07,979
asking how much is this going to cost

139
00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:10,160
and the Cubans faces were equally

140
00:06:07,979 --> 00:06:13,919
bewildered what do you mean cost

141
00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:16,500
health doesn't cost anything in Cuba so

142
00:06:13,919 --> 00:06:19,620
here we have a small country

143
00:06:16,500 --> 00:06:22,319
which is achieved phenomenal levels of

144
00:06:19,620 --> 00:06:25,500
Health Care in its own country now

145
00:06:22,319 --> 00:06:29,639
exporting around the world the benefits

146
00:06:25,500 --> 00:06:32,220
of that Healthcare this is socialism in

147
00:06:29,639 --> 00:06:34,680
action I think it's interesting just to

148
00:06:32,220 --> 00:06:36,479
think of the facts that when we talk

149
00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:40,139
about these statistics in relation to

150
00:06:36,479 --> 00:06:42,300
Cuba if Britain were to apply a similar

151
00:06:40,139 --> 00:06:45,240
process we would be talking about

152
00:06:42,300 --> 00:06:47,220
multiplying those figures six times the

153
00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:50,220
population of Cuba is only 11 million we

154
00:06:47,220 --> 00:06:52,139
have 66 million in Britain if you think

155
00:06:50,220 --> 00:06:54,060
of the number of doctors and the

156
00:06:52,139 --> 00:06:55,860
resources that could be put in the field

157
00:06:54,060 --> 00:06:57,660
just by Britain alone let's leave aside

158
00:06:55,860 --> 00:06:59,639
France Germany and all the other

159
00:06:57,660 --> 00:07:01,380
countries in the world you could see a

160
00:06:59,639 --> 00:07:02,819
fantastic transformation in the life and

161
00:07:01,380 --> 00:07:05,160
well-being of people particularly in

162
00:07:02,819 --> 00:07:06,600
countries like Africa and I think in

163
00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,940
continents like African I think an

164
00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,500
important thing is that whereas we have

165
00:07:08,940 --> 00:07:13,139
seen for example in the British Health

166
00:07:10,500 --> 00:07:15,180
Service doctors being brought from

167
00:07:13,139 --> 00:07:17,940
Africa and other countries to work here

168
00:07:15,180 --> 00:07:20,460
Cuba is doing the reverse it's going to

169
00:07:17,940 --> 00:07:22,860
those countries and also is providing

170
00:07:20,460 --> 00:07:24,360
the infrastructure to begin to build the

171
00:07:22,860 --> 00:07:26,280
health services within those countries

172
00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:28,380
by training the doctors who will then

173
00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:30,479
return home and that's an incredible

174
00:07:28,380 --> 00:07:33,539
Legacy to leave behind something of real

175
00:07:30,479 --> 00:07:36,479
value and it contrasts if you like with

176
00:07:33,539 --> 00:07:38,819
way in which Western Europe America and

177
00:07:36,479 --> 00:07:41,819
many other countries take doctors away

178
00:07:38,819 --> 00:07:43,620
from much needed areas Cuba is on the

179
00:07:41,819 --> 00:07:46,380
other hand going there and helping and

180
00:07:43,620 --> 00:07:48,479
putting something back so in just 55

181
00:07:46,380 --> 00:07:50,400
years leaving aside because people would

182
00:07:48,479 --> 00:07:53,639
have different views on it leaving aside

183
00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:56,520
the achievements inside Cuba itself in

184
00:07:53,639 --> 00:07:59,580
55 years on the international scene

185
00:07:56,520 --> 00:08:02,220
uh Cuba has played a decisive role in

186
00:07:59,580 --> 00:08:05,220
the defeat of apartheid South Africa

187
00:08:02,220 --> 00:08:07,259
which was recognized by Mandela the

188
00:08:05,220 --> 00:08:09,240
first country he visited after his

189
00:08:07,259 --> 00:08:15,240
release was of course as you know South

190
00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:18,240
Africa and this uh medical uh diplomacy

191
00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:21,800
which is actually even more staggeringly

192
00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:24,900
uh generous than I had imagined

193
00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:27,240
you must be very proud to be one of the

194
00:08:24,900 --> 00:08:28,979
leaders of solidarity campaign with such

195
00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:32,099
a country well I think Humboldt is the

196
00:08:28,979 --> 00:08:34,560
word I think not proud I mean I I think

197
00:08:32,099 --> 00:08:37,080
it is staggering I think there is there

198
00:08:34,560 --> 00:08:39,479
is not a comparable uh response by any

199
00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,320
other country in the world it it shows I

200
00:08:39,479 --> 00:08:43,500
think

201
00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:46,680
um a legacy the Cubans often express it

202
00:08:43,500 --> 00:08:49,380
in this way they say solidarity is not

203
00:08:46,680 --> 00:08:52,560
giving what you have left over but it's

204
00:08:49,380 --> 00:08:54,899
sharing what you have and I think that I

205
00:08:52,560 --> 00:08:55,920
think that is really the Hallmark of the

206
00:08:54,899 --> 00:08:58,320
way in which they've done this and

207
00:08:55,920 --> 00:09:00,720
although you know I re acknowledge that

208
00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,980
you use the word medical diplomacy I

209
00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:04,440
think it's something more than that I

210
00:09:01,980 --> 00:09:06,660
think it's human solidarity of which

211
00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:08,339
this is an important part we could talk

212
00:09:06,660 --> 00:09:10,260
about literacy and about their

213
00:09:08,339 --> 00:09:13,440
contribution and education which is

214
00:09:10,260 --> 00:09:15,060
equal well equally phenomenal they've uh

215
00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:17,160
you know they've contributed to the

216
00:09:15,060 --> 00:09:19,380
eradication of illiteracy in countries

217
00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:22,440
like Venezuela and Bolivia in throughout

218
00:09:19,380 --> 00:09:25,920
Latin America they've initiated reading

219
00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:28,140
programs which have been utilized in in

220
00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:30,120
more so-called Advanced countries like

221
00:09:28,140 --> 00:09:32,940
Spain and New Zealand and I think they

222
00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:34,380
see this as very much the development of

223
00:09:32,940 --> 00:09:36,420
the whole person that health and

224
00:09:34,380 --> 00:09:39,420
education are fundamental to people

225
00:09:36,420 --> 00:09:42,899
having to be able to live creative and

226
00:09:39,420 --> 00:09:46,320
uh positive lives well you can see why

227
00:09:42,899 --> 00:09:49,740
the U.S hates them uh because of this

228
00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:53,040
contrast that you have drawn because

229
00:09:49,740 --> 00:09:55,140
Cuba is an example that you don't have

230
00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:57,420
have to see the price of everything and

231
00:09:55,140 --> 00:10:02,120
the value of nothing that it's possible

232
00:09:57,420 --> 00:10:05,940
for values to supersede price

233
00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:08,279
is there any sign of U.S hostility to

234
00:10:05,940 --> 00:10:09,839
Cuba diminishing

235
00:10:08,279 --> 00:10:13,440
I think

236
00:10:09,839 --> 00:10:16,399
my honest answers sadly no perhaps

237
00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:19,440
verbally it's less aggressive maybe less

238
00:10:16,399 --> 00:10:20,540
ostentatious in its animosity towards

239
00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:22,920
Cuba

240
00:10:20,540 --> 00:10:24,480
for example it's a long time since the

241
00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:26,519
actual invasion of the Bay of Pigs in

242
00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:29,459
1961 and there haven't been any direct

243
00:10:26,519 --> 00:10:32,700
military sets although there is their

244
00:10:29,459 --> 00:10:34,440
countenance and give cover to people who

245
00:10:32,700 --> 00:10:37,380
are carrying out terrorist acts against

246
00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:40,440
Cuba but the reality is that the United

247
00:10:37,380 --> 00:10:43,500
States is continuing to impose a severe

248
00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:45,420
and Savage blockade against Cuba it

249
00:10:43,500 --> 00:10:47,220
means that the Cuban economy over the

250
00:10:45,420 --> 00:10:49,860
last 50 years has lost something like

251
00:10:47,220 --> 00:10:52,019
one trillion dollars and it's not a rich

252
00:10:49,860 --> 00:10:53,399
country which is impacted it means that

253
00:10:52,019 --> 00:10:55,620
when for example they want to buy

254
00:10:53,399 --> 00:10:56,880
medicine they have to go looking

255
00:10:55,620 --> 00:10:58,860
elsewhere because many of the

256
00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:01,980
pharmaceutical companies are U.S

257
00:10:58,860 --> 00:11:03,540
companies and won't trade with Cuba so

258
00:11:01,980 --> 00:11:06,000
they have to look elsewhere that adds to

259
00:11:03,540 --> 00:11:07,920
the costs of transportation and this is

260
00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:11,760
you know I give you a lot of examples of

261
00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:13,980
that and it more recently what seems to

262
00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:16,500
have been happening is that the United

263
00:11:13,980 --> 00:11:20,459
States has been imposing very heavy

264
00:11:16,500 --> 00:11:23,880
fines on banks like HSBC and other banks

265
00:11:20,459 --> 00:11:26,220
in Europe here and third countries for

266
00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:28,620
trading with Cuba and of course that

267
00:11:26,220 --> 00:11:31,560
means that those banks are reluctant or

268
00:11:28,620 --> 00:11:33,660
hesitant and of course all of this all

269
00:11:31,560 --> 00:11:36,120
the time is pushing up the cost of Cuba

270
00:11:33,660 --> 00:11:38,399
and so on well if the political

271
00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:40,800
diplomacy between the U.S and Cuba is

272
00:11:38,399 --> 00:11:42,660
not progressing how about the medical

273
00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:45,420
diplomacy when they meet on the field

274
00:11:42,660 --> 00:11:46,700
for example us has sent all their their

275
00:11:45,420 --> 00:11:50,279
troops to help

276
00:11:46,700 --> 00:11:53,120
in in the Ebola affected area in West

277
00:11:50,279 --> 00:11:55,920
Africa and it's a specific

278
00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:57,740
tricky Mission yeah because it's a big

279
00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:59,940
epidemic and

280
00:11:57,740 --> 00:12:02,339
medical workers have been attacked and

281
00:11:59,940 --> 00:12:04,560
even killed you're right and I think

282
00:12:02,339 --> 00:12:06,240
that is going to be interesting at the

283
00:12:04,560 --> 00:12:08,459
moment they're operating in different

284
00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:10,560
countries so that's not an immediate

285
00:12:08,459 --> 00:12:13,019
issue the United States is principally

286
00:12:10,560 --> 00:12:15,600
focusing on Liberia Cuba is based in

287
00:12:13,019 --> 00:12:17,279
Sierra Leone but as George said at the

288
00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,839
beginning of the program there is a

289
00:12:17,279 --> 00:12:20,579
conference taking place this week or has

290
00:12:18,839 --> 00:12:22,560
taken place this week which is

291
00:12:20,579 --> 00:12:25,860
coordinating or attempting to coordinate

292
00:12:22,560 --> 00:12:27,720
the response in West Africa and uh

293
00:12:25,860 --> 00:12:29,540
banking among the general secretary of

294
00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:32,760
the United Nations called five countries

295
00:12:29,540 --> 00:12:34,320
uh immediately to seek their support one

296
00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:36,420
of which was Cuba the others with the

297
00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:39,480
United States and uh and Great Britain

298
00:12:36,420 --> 00:12:41,459
and the Great Britain will have to oh

299
00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:44,760
because it is operating in Sierra Leone

300
00:12:41,459 --> 00:12:46,740
also we'll be looking to cooperate uh

301
00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:49,139
hopefully we will see that breaking down

302
00:12:46,740 --> 00:12:51,540
any kind of barriers and we want to see

303
00:12:49,139 --> 00:12:53,399
that happening not just in relation to

304
00:12:51,540 --> 00:12:55,320
Britain where it needs to develop much

305
00:12:53,399 --> 00:12:57,899
more but also in relation to Europe as a

306
00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:59,519
whole and that is something which is

307
00:12:57,899 --> 00:13:02,700
taking place slowly but it's beginning

308
00:12:59,519 --> 00:13:04,440
battle dragon of the Cuba solidarity

309
00:13:02,700 --> 00:13:06,600
campaign thanks for coming on board

310
00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:08,760
thank you Sputnik

311
00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:11,519
after the break the best of our foreign

312
00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:14,279
correspondents by far Intrepid and

313
00:13:11,519 --> 00:13:16,500
fearless prodigious and eloquent he's

314
00:13:14,279 --> 00:13:19,100
Patrick Coburn of the independent and

315
00:13:16,500 --> 00:13:19,100
he's up next

316
00:13:21,899 --> 00:13:27,180
welcome back to Sputnik Patrick Corbin

317
00:13:24,660 --> 00:13:29,820
is foreign correspondent of the year and

318
00:13:27,180 --> 00:13:32,820
every year for me he's just written the

319
00:13:29,820 --> 00:13:35,100
book on the phenomenon known as Isis on

320
00:13:32,820 --> 00:13:38,100
which the entire world is now fixated

321
00:13:35,100 --> 00:13:40,860
and I'm glad to say he's on board the

322
00:13:38,100 --> 00:13:45,120
Sputnik terrific new book

323
00:13:40,860 --> 00:13:48,600
absolutely timely uh what's the truth

324
00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:51,540
about Isis who are they what are they

325
00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:52,980
and what's the prospects of defeating

326
00:13:51,540 --> 00:13:55,560
them

327
00:13:52,980 --> 00:13:57,300
well an Afghan journalist once described

328
00:13:55,560 --> 00:13:59,279
movements like this as being holy

329
00:13:57,300 --> 00:14:01,500
fascists he then had to leave

330
00:13:59,279 --> 00:14:03,839
Afghanistan fairly quickly but I think

331
00:14:01,500 --> 00:14:08,040
that sort of sums them up they come out

332
00:14:03,839 --> 00:14:11,880
of al-Qaeda in Iraq that uh

333
00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:14,060
has existed since the invasion

334
00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:18,260
of 2003

335
00:14:14,060 --> 00:14:21,660
they've always been extremely uh

336
00:14:18,260 --> 00:14:24,899
anti-share incredibly violent

337
00:14:21,660 --> 00:14:27,720
the ideology is not that different from

338
00:14:24,899 --> 00:14:32,100
wahhabism in fact if you take out

339
00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:34,740
YouTube and uh and videos their methods

340
00:14:32,100 --> 00:14:37,980
are strikingly similar to those used by

341
00:14:34,740 --> 00:14:40,440
Abdul wahab the founder of wahhabism in

342
00:14:37,980 --> 00:14:43,440
conquering uh Saudi Arabia conquering

343
00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:47,459
Mecca in fact Mecca surrendered to him

344
00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:49,980
this ostentatious use of Terror it's not

345
00:14:47,459 --> 00:14:51,720
necessarily because they are sick

346
00:14:49,980 --> 00:14:54,360
individuals that they are performing

347
00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:57,959
these hideous acts of terrado they may

348
00:14:54,360 --> 00:15:01,079
be it's for the discouragement of the

349
00:14:57,959 --> 00:15:03,420
others to force surrender isn't it yes

350
00:15:01,079 --> 00:15:07,320
it's ritual murders I think what they

351
00:15:03,420 --> 00:15:09,540
have added which is new is that they put

352
00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:12,899
this online it's on you know YouTube

353
00:15:09,540 --> 00:15:16,139
these hideous it's basically snuff

354
00:15:12,899 --> 00:15:18,839
movies a very professionally made in

355
00:15:16,139 --> 00:15:20,040
which you see them taking Shia Lorry

356
00:15:18,839 --> 00:15:24,180
drivers

357
00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:27,000
out of there lorries uh there's a brief

358
00:15:24,180 --> 00:15:28,620
questioning to make sure their religious

359
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:30,600
affiliation and then they're just taken

360
00:15:28,620 --> 00:15:33,959
beside the road and shot in the head

361
00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:36,000
and this is the same thing happens to

362
00:15:33,959 --> 00:15:39,139
maybe Iraqi soldier is going to join

363
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:42,540
their units and this has an Express

364
00:15:39,139 --> 00:15:44,339
purpose which is to terrify people and

365
00:15:42,540 --> 00:15:46,980
it sort of works that's one of the

366
00:15:44,339 --> 00:15:49,980
reasons that the Iraqi Army broke up in

367
00:15:46,980 --> 00:15:52,680
mosul when Isis took mosul on the 10th

368
00:15:49,980 --> 00:15:56,279
of June now the tribes of Western Iraq

369
00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:58,980
as you identified uh cited eventually

370
00:15:56,279 --> 00:16:01,500
with the American British occupation

371
00:15:58,980 --> 00:16:05,040
drove these people out

372
00:16:01,500 --> 00:16:07,380
when they were called Al-Qaeda but they

373
00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:10,320
have flourished again as a result of

374
00:16:07,380 --> 00:16:13,560
ground which has been fertilized by

375
00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:16,440
British and American policy in Syria the

376
00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:20,339
encouragement of the Revolt as you put

377
00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:23,220
in Syria the funding of it and the

378
00:16:20,339 --> 00:16:25,440
provision of non-lethal militar Aid and

379
00:16:23,220 --> 00:16:27,899
so on these are the conditions that have

380
00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:30,899
brought this organization back to life

381
00:16:27,899 --> 00:16:33,899
and my goodness back to death

382
00:16:30,899 --> 00:16:36,120
yeah I know it's well put I think that I

383
00:16:33,899 --> 00:16:39,079
mean a point I make in the book and I

384
00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:42,060
think it's very important is that

385
00:16:39,079 --> 00:16:44,519
Isis comes out of War it's difficult to

386
00:16:42,060 --> 00:16:48,060
conceive of organizations like this

387
00:16:44,519 --> 00:16:52,100
coming out of any Peaceable situation so

388
00:16:48,060 --> 00:16:55,980
the continuation of the war in Syria

389
00:16:52,100 --> 00:16:58,079
basically demanding that it can no

390
00:16:55,980 --> 00:17:01,560
negotiations except with Assad going

391
00:16:58,079 --> 00:17:03,779
although Assad controls 13 out of 14

392
00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:07,439
provincial capitals so he obviously

393
00:17:03,779 --> 00:17:10,199
isn't going to go is basically a recipe

394
00:17:07,439 --> 00:17:14,160
for the war going on and it's in the

395
00:17:10,199 --> 00:17:16,980
conditions of war that Isis has grown up

396
00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:19,860
again and flourished and taken over an

397
00:17:16,980 --> 00:17:21,120
area which is bigger than the size of

398
00:17:19,860 --> 00:17:22,559
Great Britain

399
00:17:21,120 --> 00:17:24,540
and yet

400
00:17:22,559 --> 00:17:26,040
there are only twenty thousand of them

401
00:17:24,540 --> 00:17:28,140
according to the New York Times is that

402
00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,240
an underestimated figure but even if it

403
00:17:28,140 --> 00:17:31,799
is

404
00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:34,559
there must be a level

405
00:17:31,799 --> 00:17:37,679
uh in a territory that size of

406
00:17:34,559 --> 00:17:39,720
quiescence by the tribes for example who

407
00:17:37,679 --> 00:17:42,419
drove them out once before could drive

408
00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:46,140
them out again but are not

409
00:17:42,419 --> 00:17:48,960
I'm arguing that they are a kind of an

410
00:17:46,140 --> 00:17:52,559
expression of our manifestation of an

411
00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:56,520
allergic reaction among sunnis in Iraq

412
00:17:52,559 --> 00:17:59,520
to the kind of policy politics and

413
00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:02,400
structure that we imposed on Iraq after

414
00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:06,720
the invasion in 2003.

415
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:08,760
their reaction against Malachi uh noriel

416
00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:10,860
Maliki the prime minister

417
00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:13,140
of course one can say why was noriel

418
00:18:10,860 --> 00:18:17,100
Maliki the prime minister of Iraq from

419
00:18:13,140 --> 00:18:19,799
2006 because it's uh he was appointed by

420
00:18:17,100 --> 00:18:21,600
the United States ambassador

421
00:18:19,799 --> 00:18:24,240
um I think it's true of all countries

422
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:26,340
that are invaded from the outside then

423
00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:29,340
their leadership are appointed from the

424
00:18:26,340 --> 00:18:32,100
outside not by the indigenous population

425
00:18:29,340 --> 00:18:34,440
this is a recipe for disaster and in

426
00:18:32,100 --> 00:18:35,940
Iraq there has been a disaster you had

427
00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:40,020
this regime which is really a

428
00:18:35,940 --> 00:18:41,580
kleptocracy uh stealing from everybody a

429
00:18:40,020 --> 00:18:45,299
hundred billion dollars a year in oil

430
00:18:41,580 --> 00:18:48,539
revenues but no water no electricity for

431
00:18:45,299 --> 00:18:51,419
much of the country bad for sure bad for

432
00:18:48,539 --> 00:18:54,960
Kurds but even worse for sunny because

433
00:18:51,419 --> 00:18:57,240
they were discriminated against they

434
00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,559
were persecuted if you were a Sunni

435
00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:01,200
young man in The Villages outside

436
00:18:58,559 --> 00:19:05,160
Fallujah you've got a very good chance

437
00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:07,740
of being arrested tortured forced to

438
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:09,480
confess and you could end up on death

439
00:19:07,740 --> 00:19:11,340
row and there are villagers with few

440
00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:13,980
young men left

441
00:19:11,340 --> 00:19:15,600
and you can be on death row for a crime

442
00:19:13,980 --> 00:19:18,000
that somebody else has already been

443
00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:20,880
executed for but it doesn't do you any

444
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:23,220
good so you can imagine what it's like

445
00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:26,160
for these young men you know that Isis

446
00:19:23,220 --> 00:19:27,539
may be violent but at least it's

447
00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,640
something it's better than sitting here

448
00:19:27,539 --> 00:19:31,500
in your village waiting to be arrested

449
00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:34,860
and tortured

450
00:19:31,500 --> 00:19:39,179
what's the prognosis Patrick you've been

451
00:19:34,860 --> 00:19:43,559
there down amongst it all

452
00:19:39,179 --> 00:19:47,340
I argued in Parliament uh last week

453
00:19:43,559 --> 00:19:50,220
that this rather desultory bombing by

454
00:19:47,340 --> 00:19:52,380
British and American jets is not only

455
00:19:50,220 --> 00:19:55,320
not going to solve this problem but may

456
00:19:52,380 --> 00:19:57,780
very well exacerbate it

457
00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,799
yes because it's going to create more

458
00:19:57,780 --> 00:20:02,520
war

459
00:19:58,799 --> 00:20:05,340
you know you could say if you bomb The

460
00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:08,039
Columns of Isis on the road to our bill

461
00:20:05,340 --> 00:20:10,799
that may deter people but then this is

462
00:20:08,039 --> 00:20:13,679
basically a gorilla Force so it doesn't

463
00:20:10,799 --> 00:20:16,260
make itself available for bombing but it

464
00:20:13,679 --> 00:20:18,120
means that the war will get worse and

465
00:20:16,260 --> 00:20:20,880
it's in these conditions that Isis

466
00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:22,679
flourishes its leadership is very

467
00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:24,360
experienced

468
00:20:22,679 --> 00:20:27,660
extremely violent but they know about

469
00:20:24,360 --> 00:20:29,520
fighting and they survive bombing before

470
00:20:27,660 --> 00:20:31,340
I mean there's an absurdity about the

471
00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:33,600
present bombing as a way of

472
00:20:31,340 --> 00:20:36,780
extinguishing Isis but what happened in

473
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:40,020
2000 and seven when the Americans had

474
00:20:36,780 --> 00:20:42,059
150 000 troops there the British had

475
00:20:40,020 --> 00:20:44,280
several thousand troops they were

476
00:20:42,059 --> 00:20:46,679
bombing all the time but this group

477
00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:49,140
which was much smaller then in the shape

478
00:20:46,679 --> 00:20:50,280
of al-Qaeda survived and is still with

479
00:20:49,140 --> 00:20:53,580
us today

480
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:56,100
so why should it work this time even if

481
00:20:53,580 --> 00:20:59,580
they succeeded the United States and

482
00:20:56,100 --> 00:21:03,059
Britain are openly saying that once

483
00:20:59,580 --> 00:21:09,539
we've defeated Isis we're going to build

484
00:21:03,059 --> 00:21:11,820
a an army of of moderate extremists and

485
00:21:09,539 --> 00:21:12,960
point them towards Baghdad and ask them

486
00:21:11,820 --> 00:21:15,600
to march

487
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:18,179
yes I mean I mean there are two sort of

488
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:21,960
elements of fantasy in this one is that

489
00:21:18,179 --> 00:21:24,660
the Iraqi Army is going to March into

490
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:27,179
mosul and other places and restore Law

491
00:21:24,660 --> 00:21:28,860
and Order now the people of mosul may be

492
00:21:27,179 --> 00:21:30,840
terrified the Sunni people the

493
00:21:28,860 --> 00:21:32,220
Christians and the yazidis and the

494
00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:34,559
others have had to flee or been already

495
00:21:32,220 --> 00:21:37,320
been killed but the Sunni may not like

496
00:21:34,559 --> 00:21:40,740
them but they're even more terrified of

497
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:42,659
the Iraqi Army and the militias coming

498
00:21:40,740 --> 00:21:44,460
with them

499
00:21:42,659 --> 00:21:46,320
um I mean I have friends in mosul who

500
00:21:44,460 --> 00:21:51,120
emailed me and these are these twin

501
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:54,720
Terrors it's the same in Syria so

502
00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:56,340
um the idea that the sheer this the

503
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,860
moderates

504
00:21:56,340 --> 00:22:00,299
the third Force which needs to be

505
00:21:58,860 --> 00:22:05,460
straight out of Graham green The Quiet

506
00:22:00,299 --> 00:22:07,980
American uh it doesn't really exist

507
00:22:05,460 --> 00:22:10,380
um and this poor old third forced which

508
00:22:07,980 --> 00:22:12,059
is yet to be vitted vetted and sent to a

509
00:22:10,380 --> 00:22:14,460
Saudi Arabia to be trained is then going

510
00:22:12,059 --> 00:22:17,400
to fight not just Isis but is going to

511
00:22:14,460 --> 00:22:20,039
find the Syrian Army of Assad so this is

512
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:22,620
the stuff of fantasy I mean this group

513
00:22:20,039 --> 00:22:25,380
doesn't exist uh described them in

514
00:22:22,620 --> 00:22:27,539
Parliament last week as imaginary armies

515
00:22:25,380 --> 00:22:29,820
yeah all these groups are imaginary

516
00:22:27,539 --> 00:22:33,120
armies as is I think it's my last

517
00:22:29,820 --> 00:22:35,640
question that we've got time for the

518
00:22:33,120 --> 00:22:38,220
so-called Arab participation in this

519
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:40,980
it's a touch imaginary too isn't it

520
00:22:38,220 --> 00:22:44,400
there's no Prospect at all of the United

521
00:22:40,980 --> 00:22:47,940
Arab Emirates sending boots onto the

522
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,960
ground in Iraq or Syria neither Saudi

523
00:22:47,940 --> 00:22:51,000
Arabia

524
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,919
no I I don't think so but I think that

525
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,500
there's a reason for getting them on

526
00:22:52,919 --> 00:22:56,820
board because

527
00:22:54,500 --> 00:22:58,919
previously and really pretty well up to

528
00:22:56,820 --> 00:23:01,980
the present moment they were the covert

529
00:22:58,919 --> 00:23:07,440
supporters of the Jihadi movement in

530
00:23:01,980 --> 00:23:09,539
Syria and in Iraq they provided money uh

531
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,039
they may not like Isis much much at the

532
00:23:09,539 --> 00:23:14,580
moment because it's but it's kind of a

533
00:23:11,039 --> 00:23:18,000
Frankenstein monster that they uh

534
00:23:14,580 --> 00:23:20,580
created uh so I think the reason the

535
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:23,100
Americans were so Keen to have them is

536
00:23:20,580 --> 00:23:25,500
although publicly they said these guys

537
00:23:23,100 --> 00:23:27,360
are with us it's to make sure they

538
00:23:25,500 --> 00:23:29,880
weren't with the other side I think

539
00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:33,299
that's the real agenda well it's it

540
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:36,299
simply couldn't be better timed your new

541
00:23:33,299 --> 00:23:40,320
book The jihadi's Return by Patrick

542
00:23:36,299 --> 00:23:42,659
Coburn and or books I really encourage

543
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:45,659
everyone watching this to get themselves

544
00:23:42,659 --> 00:23:48,120
a copy it's a handbook that everyone

545
00:23:45,659 --> 00:23:50,220
who's seeking to understand these

546
00:23:48,120 --> 00:23:52,200
matters it needs to have with them

547
00:23:50,220 --> 00:23:56,700
Patrick Coburn thanks for joining us

548
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:56,700
thank you Sputnik foreign

549
00:23:57,799 --> 00:24:02,280
to tell us what you think through the

550
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:04,679
portals of social media what's rattling

551
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:06,659
Gayatri well why is it that we don't

552
00:24:04,679 --> 00:24:09,720
know about this Cuban medical workers

553
00:24:06,659 --> 00:24:12,480
these doctors surgeons working all over

554
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:15,120
the world and healing people Saladin

555
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:18,000
returns answers that because no enemy of

556
00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:20,520
the US can ever do any good cubers are

557
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:23,039
probably planning to overthrow U.S from

558
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:25,559
other countries at the moment even I

559
00:24:23,039 --> 00:24:27,900
didn't know the scale of this medical

560
00:24:25,559 --> 00:24:31,320
solidarity that Cuba's involved in on

561
00:24:27,900 --> 00:24:33,600
Isis Jane Limer says that Isis may be

562
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:36,240
defeated but as shown before when you

563
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:38,700
remove one layer of an ideology like a

564
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:41,520
Russian door another is revealed and

565
00:24:38,700 --> 00:24:44,400
basharat Ali makes the point that how is

566
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:46,799
that before the vote from last week or

567
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:48,780
for war we are under imminent threat to

568
00:24:46,799 --> 00:24:49,740
our very lives and then it all goes

569
00:24:48,780 --> 00:24:51,600
quiet

570
00:24:49,740 --> 00:24:53,280
quite in a sense that it's not as

571
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,620
imminent anymore

572
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:58,559
look we are under threat from these

573
00:24:55,620 --> 00:25:00,960
people uh there are hundreds of British

574
00:24:58,559 --> 00:25:03,299
citizens fighting with these Fanatics

575
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:05,880
and one day they'll all come back here

576
00:25:03,299 --> 00:25:07,980
unless they're killed before that when

577
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:10,980
they come back here all dressed up

578
00:25:07,980 --> 00:25:15,539
nowhere to go except looking for ways to

579
00:25:10,980 --> 00:25:19,200
harm us but they are not an army it's

580
00:25:15,539 --> 00:25:21,059
not a conventional war and therefore the

581
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:23,460
methods of conventional War for

582
00:25:21,059 --> 00:25:25,260
countering it are entirely inappropriate

583
00:25:23,460 --> 00:25:27,480
and that's all that we have for this

584
00:25:25,260 --> 00:25:29,039
week which sadly means that's the end of

585
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,380
the show will you please keep in touch

586
00:25:29,039 --> 00:25:33,600
with us on RT underscore Sputnik and for

587
00:25:31,380 --> 00:25:35,700
Facebook like us on Sputnik on Russia

588
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:37,559
today it's goodbye for me Gayatri and

589
00:25:35,700 --> 00:25:40,039
from me George Galloway it's been

590
00:25:37,559 --> 00:25:40,039
marvelous

591
00:25:45,900 --> 00:25:48,900
oh